Nihonto Club

Hi Kyle and Welcome!

Temper line is hard to photograph indeed. But if you make few photos of the overall blade (with and without mountings), tang with signature and some close-ups of the blade surface (there's no need to catch hamon, just good crisp photos would be enough), it's a good start.

Regards,
Stan

thanks. just loaded a few pictures. i hope i did it right.

Hi Kyle,

The signature is:

(Iga no Kami - title, Kinmichi - smith's name).

There were few smiths who signed this way.

I can't derive much more from the photos, but having briefly looked at examples of Iga no Kami Kinmichi, it must be one of the elder ones, more likely KIN43. The signature bears certain resemblance with KIN43, with few differences too. He was also said to be making wide swords, and this sword is wide. Most of the later generations of Kinmichi would engrave 'kiku' (chrysanthemum) above the signature. This one doesn't have kiku which points either to KIN43 or it's a gimei (fake signature - being faked around the time of production, it's still an old sword).

Regards,
Stan

thank you. could you give me a date of when he worked? or a date from a style of the blade? sorry, but i have found a new passion.

sorry but im just learning how to use the sight. how would someone learn if the signature was fake or authentic? and if its kin43 would that be considered koto or shinto? thanks for the help.

Hi Kyle,

Dates for various generations of Iga no Kami Kinmichi span from 1596 to 1840s.

Photographs are not sufficient to properly examine the style and other properties, especially because the blade is out of polish. It sometimes (or should I say always for non-professional sword enthusiasts like us?) takes years of research to find out more about the blade, and I hope you'll enjoy this journey as it's one of the most exciting sides of Nihonto studies. It's like a jigsaw puzzle: eventually you'll see a similar blade in some book or maybe on sale, but in different condition and with something else known about it. And then all pieces may come together.

It's an art and a science. In some cases it's quite easy to recognize fakes, when big name signatures are found on mediocre blades.

Using Mei Search facility on this website is a good start as it narrows down the potential choices of smiths significantly. Once you have a list of potential candidates, you may go through all of them to see if they could have made this sword based on its properties.

Ideally, one needs to be an expert in the works of the smith under consideration. Owning a blade is a good reason to become an expert :-)

In general, you should:

• Find enough information about the smith and his historical background, style, genealogy, relation to major schools of swordmaking.
• Make sure that the blade, its properties and condition match the age and style expected from that smith.
• Compare the blade with existing confirmed works of this smith. Compare the signature, style. You will need to use specialised books and other sword literature.

Kinmichi KIN43 is late Koto.

Regards,
Stan

ive been researching what i have learned from you and it is very interesting. i have had an interest for ancient japanese swords for years and i just bought my first one. i love it. what would be a good book for the best research? and i was going to take better pictures and post them. ill try to take better pictures of the hamon. thank you again for all your help. i greatly appreciate it.

Here's a list of 'must-have' books for beginners (which are worth coming back to at any level):

The Samurai Sword: A Handbook, by Joh Yumoto
The Japanese Sword: A Comprehensive Guide, by Kanzan Sato
The Connoisseur's Book of Japanese Swords, by Kokan Nagayama

There's also a great new book: Facts and Fundamentals of Japanese Swords. A Collector's Guide. By the way it covers the topics you were interested in (authenticity etc).

All of them are widely available on Amazon.

Regards,
Stan

ive posted some new pictures. i have the first book you said but i will have to get the others. one thing that puzzles me is that the nagasa is 21.5 inches. from what ive read its to short for a katana and to long for a wakizashi. would it be considered a kodachi?

thanks again
kyle

For just one book, I would recommend Nagayama's book.
Yumoto's book is the one that people like me started on, but Nagayama's is bigger and better.
I'm not familiar with the 4th book that Stan mentioned.

I like your Kinmichi. I have two blades that are "cousins" of yours - mine are both Tango no Kami Kanemichi. They are all descended from KAN1395.

Pete

thank you very much pete. i am very happy with it. ill have to get nagayama's book. also id like to clear something up. as i said im new to this so im not sure where to measure from for the nagasa length. its 21.5 inches from the tip to the beginning of the habaki. is that correct?

Yes, you measure in a straight line from the tip to the "hamachi" - the ledge where the back-edge of the blade stops, and the tang begins.
You should NOT use the habaki in any part of the measurement, but depending on the style of the habaki, you can probably make an exact measurement with it still in place.
If it's less than about 24", it's generally considered to be a wakizashi.

Pete

first of all i would like to thank pete and stan. stan told me in 10 seconds what i spent 3 months looking for. i can tell from the posts that pete and stan are very informative and im sure everyone greatly appreciates there help. ok, ive been looking for examples of iga no kami kinmichi and have not found one without the crisanthimum. although i am only searching on the internet. i havent had a chance to get the books suggested to me. if anyone would have a picture of an authentic kin43 signature i would greatly appreciate you sharing it. and how much do signatures vary from sword to sword. as in did they always sign the same or were there variances from the same smith?

thanks
kyle

sorry to keep posting but it seems this is all i think about anymore. i guess its my OCD. LOL!! i posted some new pictures of the blade. from what you can see from the hamon and ridgeline is there anything else you can tell me? as in does it match the mishina school or anythning else that i dont know enough to ask about.

Hi Kyle,

As I'm travelling at the moment, I won't be able to scan the signature from the book. I'll do it in about 2 weeks time when I'm back home.

As for the signatures, yes there may be variances (even including smiths changing names). Smith directories usually shown the most 'typical' examples of signatures.

Regards,
Stan

thank you stan.

I'll see what I can find in my books.
Stay tuned.

Pete

Fujishiro's "Shintou-hen" book has several examples of Kinmichi for different generations. Unfortunately, none of them are very close to yours (but that doesn't necessarily mean anything).

In the signature of yours, some things to note are:
The top-right stroke in "I" of "Iga". In yours, the top stroke is short, the one below it is long.
In the "Ga" of "Iga", see how the box in the upper-right sticks out to the right quite a lot.
The bottom half of "Kin" is a bit unusual.
In "Michi", the 'road' that goes down the left side, then under the bottom, has strong curves (rather then being straighter). Also, the box-shaped part in the middle is rather oval-shaped (not rectangular), with very short lines inside.

For a bunch of great info on Mishina school smiths, try to find a copy of "Art and the Sword", 1997, Volume Seven. It is 114 pages on nothing but Mishina-ke. It was published by the JSSUS (Japanese Sword Society of the U.S.).

In Nagayama's book, pages 233-236 talk about Mishina-ke.
There are drawings of two important hamon features of many (not all!) Mishina blades:
1) The "Mishina boshi". This refers to the shape of the hamon in the tip of the blade. Drawing 190 is the ideal example. Many real examples are more subtle than this.
2) The "Kyo-yakidashi". This refers to the hamon at the other end of the blade. Moving from the tip towards the habaki, in the last 2-4" the hamon suddenly 'settles down' and becomes mostly straight before it reaches the hamachi. In Nagayama's book, plates 187 and 188 are good examples. Does your blade have this feature?

Pete

...Speaking of books, I am selling a copy of Hawley's "Tsubas in Southern California" on *Bay.
It's not the greatest book on tsuba (because there is no text to explain anything), but it does have about 1400 items pictured, and the price is right!

Pete

yes i have noticed the differences in the signature. im still working off the internet though and havent been able to find a signature without the crasanthimum. not sure if it makes a difference but since mine doesnt have one thats what i was hoping to compare it to. as far as the hamon goes, i cant make out the hamon in the tip. not sure of its because of being out of polish or not. it does look like someone has used steel wool or something like it on the blade at some time (scratches). i dont know enough about it if that would make a difference though. as far as the "kyo-yakidashi" goes, i have posted a new pic of it and yes it does look like it fits that style. it seems about the last 2 inches just kinda lay down and run smooth. also from what you have seen from this blade, is it (in your eyes) worth having polished? do you know of anyone in the central united states that can do it correctly? around the kansas city area.

thanks
kyle

dont pay any attention to the date and time stamp on the pictures. i took them this morning. i get obsessed with things at times but not the settings on the camera. LOL! thanks guys.

It's hard for me to give (good) advice about polishing from looking at photos. Some things to look for to help in the decision:
One consideration is "how many times has it been polished before?".
Remove the habaki, and look at the ha (edge) where it ends. This is the 'ha-machi' (I previously incorrectly said hamachi, when I should have said mune-machi, when measuring the length of the blade). How deep is the hamachi? In a blade that has been polished many times, the hamachi becomes very shallow (say 1mm or less). Also note the overall width of the blade for the first couple of inches above the hamachi. If it becomes measurably narrower than the hamachi area, it is because the polisher was trying not to remove the hamachi - it implies a "tired" blade that is past its prime.
Look over the ha for any visible chips (including the end of the tip). A polisher will have to remove enough metal to eliminate the chip. Even a 0.5mm deep chip means removing a lot of stuff!
Also look for anything like a 'crack' in the ha - this is a very serious defect.
Also look for 'gaps', 'inclusions', or 'blisters' in any part of the blade. Properly repairing a blister is very expensive.

Also, hold the blade tang directly in front of your eye, and point the blade at a light bulb, such that you are sighting down the length of the blade (as if you are trying to see if the blade has a slight bend in it). Move the blade so that the reflection of bulb moves up and down the shinogi surface. Look for any non-flatness (waves) going down the blade. Look at the shinogi (ridge line) and see if it dips or wobbles, and if the angle is crisp. What I'm desribing may be hard to see until you have seen a comparison of 'good' and 'bad' for yourself - when someone shows you a 'good' example, you may be surprised at the perfection in the shape of the surfaces. Most WWII-vintage blades are 'bad'. You can probably see most of this in your blade, even with the steel wool damage (but the shinogi might be a bit rounded).

When looking for the boshi (the hamon in the tip), try different types of lighting, and hold the blade at all different angles to the light. A bare bulb several feet away from you is good. Also try direct sunlight. Flourescent lighting is usually bad.

General comments:
Be very careful when choosing a polisher. Outside of Japan, there are only 2 or 3 guys that I've heard of that I would risk my blade with.
As of about 25 years ago, a polish for a blade like yours would cost around $1200-$1500, which would have included a new habaki and shirasaya, and shipping to/from Japan. If a polisher tells you that you don't need a new habaki or saya, then you need a new polisher! I assume that a wakizashi polish today is $2000 or more(?).
If you send a blade to Japan for polish, it will be gone for *months*.
In polishing, there is a risk of exposing a serious flaw (such as a blister).
When sending a blade to Japan for polish, many folks will also get a "kantei" (written expert opinion) - years ago, this cost only a couple hundred bucks extra.
Generally, I would not recommend that you commission a polish on anything until you have a lot more experience, which means handling lots of blades.
If you have the $$ that it takes to get a proper polish, then I would recommend instead buying a blade that is good enough that it doesn't need a polish. Assuming that you know what you're buying, you eliminate all the risk and waiting.

Beware of un-qualified polishers. There are a lot of ways to ruin a blade.

Comments on "kantei":
Not every kantei is worth getting. You should have a clear idea of *why* you want to have "papers" for your blade. Most kantei papers don't tell you anything that you didn't already know, except that it claims that the signature is not false. So what? If it is gimei (false), they are NOT going to tell you who actually *did* make it.
Some people get papers to increase the resale value, which works, but only if the papers are from a major outfit like NBTHK or NTHK.
A lot of decent blades are gimei, so your chances of getting papers may not be good. It's more satisfying to learn enough about your blade *yourself*, and decide if it is gimei.
Also, note that there can be "politics" involved with papers. After all, the papers are an "opinion", not a "fact".
Instead of papers, you'll learn way more by sitting down with experienced collectors who can point out the good/bad, and show you other examples of good/bad.

Pete

hello again. ive been looking over the blade since i got your response. to start with the hamachi is right at 1m.m. the blade does stay close to the same width from there though. very little taper. i can not see any cracks or blisters in the steel and the lines are very crisp. i sighted down the blade as you suggested (i hope i was doing it right) and i saw no variance in lighting. looking down the back of the blade it does look like it might have a very slight bend at the same place it has a small nick in the blade. the nick might be 1 tenth of a m.m. i was mainly interested in getting it polished to bring out the beauty of the blade. im not worried about getting papers on it for resale im just wanting to convince myself 100% that i have a true nihonto. i have drawn a very rough sketch of some of the characteristics of the blade with some measurments. i will post it also. there are a few spots where fingers prints have left impressions over the years.is there anything i can do to get rid of them or stop the corrosion without damaging the steel? thank you for all your help.

kyle

Hi Kyle,
When you say bend, I suppose you mean sideways? Do you mean that the whole blade has a slight bend, or just the area of the little chip?
In any case, mild bends can be fixed by the polisher. I've heard of amateurs doing it too, although it's risky.
The size of the chip doesn't sound like a concern, either.

Personally, I think I would not get your blade polished. It costs a lot, takes a long time, and you might be disapppointed with the results. For me, I would want the blade to be "less tired", and I would want to see all of the hamon clearly enough to know that it all there. This is something I forgot to mention yesterday: if there are areas (such as the boshi) where you can't see the hamon, it is possible that there is nothing to see, because either the blade has already been polished too much, or it has been in a fire.
Also, the little notch that you mentioned in the tang needs close inspection... You may want to post a picture of the habaki portion without the habaki in place.

I think there is no doubt that you have a "true nihonto". It's just a matter of the condition.

Regarding fingerprints and such:
On a blade like yours which is NOT close to being in a good polish, I use scraps of 100% cotton white flannel, and good-quality gun oil. While doing something mindless like watching TV, rub the stained areas with the cloth and a couple drops of the oil. Use *white* flannel so that you can see if any rust-staining is coming off. Be sure to use GOOD gun oil, such as Break-Free CLP. You can also use the official Japanese sword "clove oil", but it's pretty much just mineral oil with clove scent added. My rule of thumb is: Use the type of oil that a gun collector would use on a Very Expensive firearm. Don't use anything 'clever', such as stuff with special rust-eating chemicals (like 'Naval Jelly') or colors. If in doubt, take two simple iron nails, polish them bright with steel wool, then leave one of them coated with the oil for a few days while the other is dry. Don't deliberately oil the tang area, but a little oil there doesn't hurt anything.

If you do get a blade freshly polished, then the "handling rules" get a lot stricter. That's a different topic.

Pete

thanks for answering so fast pete. yes i mean the blade has a slight bend sidaways and yes at the chip. i havent tried to measure it in any way but i would say not much at all. its just not perfectly straight. as i said before all the ridge lines are very crisp. i will post yet another picture of the notch that i was talking about. its very small but i thought i would mention it since i was talking about certain specifics of the blade. its not a perfect half circle but it doesnt seem to be far off. do you think it was put there on purpose? as in does it have a meening? i would also like to have a "less tired" blade. but i would love to be able to bring out the true beauty of a hamon. i have been using white cotton cloths and good gun oil on it. i didnt think that would hurt anything.

thanks
kyle

also, not sure if its typical but the file marking seem to change from one side of the tang to the other. not a big difference but it seems that on one side they have a greater slant than the other. i would say at least half. as in, if one side is a 45 degree angle the other side is a 22.5. could this mean that the blade has been reworked or is that typical?

forget what i said about the file marking on the tang. i should have looked at it closer before i posted about it. they do seem to match from side to side but the angle seems to get greater as they go down the tang.

hello pete and stan
i have yet another question for either of you. i was rubbing oil on the blade trying to remove some of the spots and started thinking about the saya. so i grabbed the "kojiri ?" and started to oil it. to my suprise etchings started to show up. i havent been able to find one of its size. usally they are small from what i have seen. both sides seem to tell the same story from bottom to top. it goes from a leaf, to a bud, to a flower, to a leaf. the leafs are copper etched and the bud and flower are silver etched. have either of you seen a "kojiri ?" of this size and if you have can you tell me anything about it? i have posted a picture of it. thanks for any more help.

thanks
kyle

Hi Kyle,
I don't know anything to say about your kojiri, except that it looks like a nice one! Be careful about oiling it - there might be a risk that the oil would loosen the copper/silver parts.

From what I can see in the pictures, all of your "kodogu" (small decorative metal pieces) look nice. The design on the tsuba probably represents a scene from a Japanese folk tale or legend.

I see that you posted a picture of the blade under the habaki. I can't see anything to worry about there. Looks like there are polisher's marks - those parallel lines that look sorta like a bar-code. The pattern of the lines can tell who did the last polish, but I have no idea how to decode them.

Pete

thank you pete. all of your comments and help are greatly appreciated.

thanks
kyle

Hi Kyle,

I've uploaded few examples of Iga no Kami Kinmichi (1st generation) signatures.

As you see, there are differences in the way some characters are done, especially 伊 and 金, if you compare it to your sword.

Regards,
Stan